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Room for live sex video chat Carammell
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Date: October 25, 2022
My boyfriend’s stepmom can get very busy with work, and she doesn’t have time to prioritize playing with him all the time. They schedule a lot of play dates with him so he has another kid to run around with a lot. I think when we come over and she’s not working she sometimes lets us just be the one to entertain him. Plus, if I’m over he always wants to play with me and not her anyways.
It is not a matter of you playing with him or not. It is a matter of her PARENTING HER CHILD. And that means discipline as well as playing with him.
My boyfriend’s dad can be very hands off… Like I know he’ll be in the next room over and I’m sure he can hear the the little brother is starting to have a tantrum and be annoying. He just won’t do anything though and let me boyfriend try to deal with it until my boyfriend decides it’s enough and calls him and asks him to distract his child for long enough for us to leave without him running out in the driveway while we’re backing out. His dad literally had to drag him away from us last weekend.
Again, he needs to step up and parent his child.
My boyfriend is very much considering moving out over this issue.
Certainly I think YOU need to be doing over there much less, and if your boyfriend is the only one doing any parenting here, he needs to be setting boundaries, with consequences. “Sometimes Mandy and I want to do things on our own; you acting this way, screaming, crying, etc. makes us not want to hang out with you as much. It is OK to feel your feelings but this behaviour is extreme and it is not going to get you what you want.”
Honestly I think the kid would probably benefit from a therapist to learn some coping mechanisms for his moods.
Can I DM you bro?
My cousin was in your same situation about 15 years ago. Her guy never changed his mind on the kids thing. She put it off thinking he'll come around eventually. He didn't and they broke up when she was in her mid 40s. Then she regretted not having kids.
You're honest than she was so you have time. You also don't have to be in an exclusive relationship. If you 2 keep it casual you can meet other guys and maybe find the right match.
This is my biggest fear – cheating usually has a way of coming out eventually, and I would feel horrible if he found out years later and knew I didn't say anything before the wedding.
To be clear, I think what she did is awful, and if it were any other friend I would tell the fiancé in a heartbeat. I am struggling because I know that telling him would save him from a dishonest marriage, but it would also completely ruin her life. I know people want justice and want cheaters to pay, but I would seriously worry for her mental & physical health if he found out and I don't know if I can cope with the responsibility of that. It feels like I have to choose between saving him or saving her.
Don’t compare the two of you on how you would handle things, you’re two different people. It doesn’t matter if “you would do this” you are each your own person, with your own feelings, and react to things in your own way. My ex would always say “well that wouldn’t bother me” that doesn’t matter, it bothers me (or in this case your partner).
I don’t think those are good reasons to give the gift. From the rest of your story I think it sounds like this relationship is over. If you can’t bear to do that put it in the back of a closet where you won’t see it again until you either get back together or find it while cleaning at a later point when you can bear to toss it.
This happened to me and now a couple of months later I’m trying to leave my course and find somebody to replace me in my accommodation. It didn’t result in a comfortable living situation. My advice is to be very careful. Although it’s reassuring that they are being transparent about it
Not to me but I know some people that value it. My best friend dropped out of college and makes 500k plus bonus.
I got a STEM degree and decided to open up a small business in an unrelated field. I make decent money but nothing in that range.
No but I have said it to her as well. He got no business defending people he barely knows over me. If someone was hurting me he was going to run away hiding but when it is about other people he thinks its okay for him to compare me with Mass Murderer (Putin)
Don't leave your family. Love dies at some point, feelings fade away and people change. Not to mention she's still too young for relationships and she will definitely change after some time.
It could be the truth.
My ex is a ridiculous liar and whenever I confronted him about something I knew to be a lie, he would deny it right away and come up with a horrible explanation.
It could be someone else trying to hurt him in the way they accused him.
Keep your eyes and ears open for other red flags.
No. Dump that person. She likes to keep back up options she can use them now but can’t use you. Take the respect you have and don’t give her the chance to snatch it away
Ehhh I was kind of on your side until you said this. His behavior was definitely weird and creepy and manipulative, but your views are pretty outdated. It’s rude to show up at a restaurant and expect that your date will pay, regardless of your gender. Sometimes the date will go well and I, a woman, will offer to pay the full bill. Sometimes it’s the other way around. There should be no expectation, just communicate.
Up until the last paragraph, I thought your girlfriend is just jealous, but since you admitted having a crush on her, she is absolutely right. However, I see no reason to believe your feelings are returned. Sporadic communication and forced work interaction doesn't mean she wants you. Honestly it would be best for you to be single for a while.
I think when you said ‘ring’ he freaked out thinking you want marriage and he’s probably not ready for that.
Tiktok bf test? What’s that?
(Sorry i don’t use tiktok)
It sounds like you're not the first young girlfriends daddy took home shortly after dating. And you likely won't be the last. They're probably tired of the whole rigamaroo between dad and his young girlfriends. And you're just the newest one they have to deal with. I'm surprised that you already think that you're going to be a stepmother after a few months of dating…
Also…welp…she's 13 LOL. You're closer in age to her compared to you vs her father. I think it's great that she's sassy, honest and outspoken. If you last long or/and end up getting serious, you can be sure, she's going to not hide her feeling for you and be two-faced at the very least.
If I were you, and you intend on dating this multimillionaire bf for awhile, take things slow. Keep things polite and friendly with his kids. Don't try to meddle any father/daughter time, and don't force closeness between you and the kids. Let the relationship unfold within their timeline since you're the 'adult' here.
I don’t want her to be stuck taking care of my baby. If I’m able to live! with them I can take care of everything no problem.
My relationship never went to that extent but I definitely empathize with you. It’s comfortability, not wanting to have a drastic change in life, being contempt, being absolutely blindsided by love, developing a trauma bond, developing unhealthy coping and communication mechanisms.
It’s extremely hot to let go of a relationship. Nevertheless one that is not healthy. I highly highly reccomend you do some deeper soul searching to ensure you can still have a happy life. It will be one of the hardest things to do, but really have an objective perspective on things. Imagine this was your best friend instead of yourself, what would you tell them to do?
Only you can decide if this can be something continued (given that it takes two to tango) or just let go.
Just keep an eye on your drinks and sniff them first lol. I don't think you have to worry though, he was probably just trying to be funny especially if he's never pranked you before and is not that type of a person in general.
And how will her texting you happy birthday make you feel better knowing she is with him. Stop pity seeking, she is gone treat yourself well. You have 2 reasons to celebrate 1) birthday 2) freedom
Because moms always have the best snacks on deck.
…..Brother?
This is so genuinely sweet and eye opening! Definitely the kind of love I want, and I love that you have found that. I genuinely think my girlfriend is capable of loving me and the dogs like that, but has some sort of emotional block up. Hopefully she can see a little more of my perspective as I am trying to see hers too but maybe we won’t ever see eye to eye. Thank you for your perspective and congrats on your sweet love!
Ohmigosh I totally forgot to change his age here… he’s 26 going on 27, but he told me he’s 24!!
First of all, despite what you’ve done, you’re still entitled (and will ALWAYS be entitled) to your boundaries, and that includes only doing what you’re comfortable with. If you feel precarious about this party, then that is truly all you have to know, everything else can be sorted; but make sure you do what’s best for you and your sobriety full stop. Your boundaries do not require understanding or explanation, even from yourself.
Everything else can be sorted: you don’t have to read into the “messages,” or “overtones,” or talking behind your back. As much as you can remind yourself it’s none of your business. “Not my chair not my problem.” Make sure bf has a safe ride to and from the party, send your heartfelt regrets, and pamper yourself and be proud you’ve been sober for so long!!
She sounds like she might be a really messy person, or you may have triggered something in her past, or something you’re not seeing. The only way this will all shake out the best is if you get really clear about your boundaries and practice letting the chips fall where they may with her: as long as you know you’re being genuine and honest the truth will become apparent to everyone, it’ll just take some patience. You don’t have to fix everything with her, and you can’t, all you can do is keep protecting yourself and showing up consistently.
Just one though. Once you get to 2 professional helps, it doesn't work anymore.
I would send him this as a text:
“Nate, I know we haven’t been together very long, but I adore your daughter and I care for you both very much and want this to work, but it can’t if you continue to spank her… My trauma and what I’ve been through makes it to where I’m unable to be around you when you do this. I hope you understand that. I would love to help with her and do a gentle parenting approach with you!”
My son is 1, and I will not hit him! (I was hit as a child too. I was smart enough to understand verbal responses, and timeouts and repercussions like things being taken, etc. I didn’t have to be hit…) He nurses still and he bit my nipples repeatedly the other night and I just unlatched him, told him it hurt, and made him sit down in his crib or my lap and wait to try again. Eventually he didn’t do it anymore. He hasn’t done it since! You TEACH children, you don’t make them cower in fear and hurt them…
You could try safe space Timeouts for her when she does things he and you disapprove of! (Like maybe a corner with some textures she can touch and a little mat to sit or stand on?) Super Nanny has some awesome tactics for it. Check it out on Hulu!
Best of luck ?
Total assumption so take it with a (couple) grain(s) of salt—if he is as great as you say he is he probably gets a fair amount of attention from the opposite sex. This might give him a skewed view on relationships and love. I’m sure he doesn’t think he’s doing anything wrong so I wouldn’t take it as a red flag, but I’d be prepared to not initially see eye to eye on a couple of things. He could see a very romanticized version of love
I’m sorry, but… I’m really baffled by this. Why is any of this mandatory? You’re 22. Can’t you search for a job yourself?
There’s nothing you can do about the lady. I can already see that this is one of those environments where no one takes your complaints seriously.
However, if you want, you can write out everything you think about her and how she has hurt you and send her a letter, then let the dominos fall where they might. At least you get it out of your system.
Gangbang, rape, abuse and barely legal are no good. But what's wrong with all the other stuff ??
I can afford to spend like that, i just don't feel like i should since that was wrong.
I don’t know why everyone is calling your wife your business partner… this them trying to discuss finances. I also don’t think anyone is taking into account that divorce is always a possibility in life especially since you and your wife seem to have different priorities for your money as well as different standards
If you and your wife got divorced while your name wasn’t on the title of your current house, you would have no claim to it
If you and your wife ever get a divorce, she could take the house without having put down any money…. And there is a bug difference between 10k and 100k
I think you should seek counseling or at least get a contract written up if you don’t already have a prenup
I think you are really sweet.
I think as a tall girl who has already expressed that she wants to feel small is pretty self aware. I think she will see it as a good gesture.
Your a good egg. ?
You aren’t even out of your twenties and you’re already working separate beds into rotation. Yeesh
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No
Why would you jump to the conclusion for it being a prank? Why do you think that?
Okay why? Why would he not touch a man’s butt? Is it because it’s too sexual?
Do you even hear yourself?
I find these situations hot to judge. For example I will see “I had an argument with my SO and now they are withholding sex”. But it’s like, are they really? Maybe they just don’t want to have sex with you because you had an argument. Same with this situation. Maybe you literally just don’t feel like making a person dinner who you are arguing with. I don’t this this is emotional abuse. It’s not like it’s a child who needs to you make them dinner. They can do it themselves
Lol you married a 40-year-old cop after a couple of dates and you’re surprised he’s (a) dysfunctional, (b) distant, and (c) not happy about raising a child he didn’t want.
You got the outcome you set yourself up for…
Not sure there’s any advice that will be useful since the best advice involves time travel.
Good idea!
Exactly! In my family… when someone says they want to get themselves something it’s more like a hint telling other people, “hey, I want this in case you were wondering what to get me for xyz”.
Get a divorce no question asked
The way you're talking doesn't make me surprised she's rejecting you tbh
Ummm okay….
Check out mindfulness practices to help with your ADHD. The basic premise to to treat your thoughts and emotions as if you are watching them WITHOUT JUDGEMENT from a 3rd person perspective
Using this practice, you can potentially become less exhausting by:
1) Making a habit of not saying your thoughts out loud. This will prevent you from annoying others so much.
2) Releasing your emotions instead of reacting to your emotions. This will prevent others needing to “walk on eggshells” for your benefit.
The clinginess is due to low self-esteem / low self-worth. Therapy would be a good idea. If you want to go the self-help route, then you can try Louise Hay's book “You Can Heal Your Life.” However, self-help isn't the most effective route for most people: I would recommend therapy if possible.
Another habit to get into is journaling. At the end of each day, review the times that you had strong emotions and write about what happened and how you reacted. This will help you process emotions and start seeing your unhealthy patterns of behavior.
I should have explained more , she also hits back in those kinda lines
So, her dad had just gotten murdered and she asked the ex if they could go on a break because of the emotion turmoil. Ex said no but love interest started drinking to cope. Hasn't had a drink since the night. I also looked it up live and the story matches up. Dad was murdered brutally by a family friend.
Because she did break up with you. She's been trying to “trickle” break up to let you down easy, but the truth is you're over. You need to respect her wishes and find a healthy way to deal with how you feel, because you're allowed to feel very confused and sad based on how drawn out this was. But yes, you two are over.
No. I wonder if she’s really satisfied with your sex life. I know women that have faked it for years and they gradually quit wanting it. The body doesn’t matter when the sex is great. Or. She has other issues that are probably emotional and she’s not talking about the issues.
Get on the same page as your partner. Do what you agree to do together.
That said why any married couple wants to live with their parents is absolutely beyond me.
Sounds like she’s making things up because she intends to use them against you when she divorces you. If she can claim you are “abusive” in some way at she will get more. And with so many types of abuse (financial, emotional) being a thing these days and no real evidence being needed she might be trying that.
Or else she’s spending too much time on bitter womens forums and imagines herself a victim because she’s resentful of being a SAHM and no longer loves you
Exactly..I gave the same advice
Time to move on. Red flags if his yelling got you evicted…gtfo of that relationship it's toxic.
Last week when he could go 2 minutes minimum
If this isn’t fake, this lady is the worst.
You’re setting yourself for a heartbreak.
She needs therapy and you need to end this relationship.
Oh my bad i understood that diff.
He thinks you are masculine and want to dominate the relationship
He will apply to like 5 jobs a week tops and doesn’t apply to any more until he hears back and gets rejected. I’ve told him how dumb that is.
I screenshot this comment. Thank you.
I'm not in love with her. She's like a sister. She's the only family I have left.
Ok, my take on this will be different from most here as I don't see this as a break-up offense. I also see strip clubs as harmless fun while for others, it's cheating.
Your girlfriend was out having fun and got caught up in the moment. With your history and boundaries stated, did she cross that boundary? Yeah, probably. But is this repetitive behavior for her? Is she constantly crossing your boundaries? Or is this a one time event that she even called you from to let you know what happened?
The people saying that she would do more favors for more drinks are really stretching reality. Do you trust your gf? Has she been a good partner? Is she a good person? If my wife came home and told me she did that, I'd be like, cool, we saved money on a shot. Because I know at the end of the day, she is coming home to me, and I want her to have a little fun in life. We really aren't on this rock for a long time.
If you are having trust issues with her, she constantly pushes your boundaries, and you don't feel comfortable in this relationship, By all means, kick her to the curb. This would be the final nail in the coffin, but if not, do you want to throw away a good relationship over this?
Also, get some therapy for your insecurities from your former cheating partner. Don't project your past relationships onto your current gf. My ex fiance got pregnant by my good friend. I carried that shit with me for a long time, and it really affected my marriage until I finally got help for it and it probably saved my marriage. It changed the way I look at life and I wish I did it sooner.
I've been downvoted into oblivion for telling people that 2 years is too soon to get married, lol so I always have to put “IMO” now so I don't get downvoted as much.
Last week my girlfriend was off of work all week and did chores around the apartment. Cleaning, laundry, cooking etc. So I gave her money for Starbucks and an hour foot massage.
That's how is supposed to work, not you doing the work and then being berated.
That sounds like an excuse not to try. You don't know until you try and if you want ton change something about the way you think or feel or behave then the appropriate course of action is to ask a professional for help. No one here is going to give you magic advise that fixes this for you.
You have to be willing to put the work in to make bug changes on the way you think and feel about yourself, and once you feel better about yourself you will surround yourself with people who appreciate you, because you know your own value.
If you don't value yourself, you surround yourself with people who reinforce that feeling, people who make you feel worthless, or used. If you want to change the people you let into your life, it starts with knowing what your worth and how you deserve to be treated.
No matter what has happened in your life so far, you have value and should feel loved and appreciated. You are the one who controls how you feel and how you move forward.
If you need help -and I think we both know you do- you have to go find it in a professional trained to help. Not in sexual partners who give you a temporary high, but then leave you feeling the same, or worse, about yourself. They don't determine your value. You do.
I'm sorry he wasn't more caring and supportive, I know if it was my wife I'd be freakin out and making sure she was comfortable/settled and okay, those things can really rattle you even if there's no injury or harm done
Just like you have to be ok with her past and who she is, she needs to be ok with the fact that you'll avoid confrontation unless its absolutely necesarry.
That's who you are and trying to shame you into being something else is her not being ok with your personality.
You’re right, imma stop here. ✌️
Yes you did. You just chose to ignore it because that suited you.
It's something LDR couples “deal with” when one of them wants to end the relationship but doesn't have to nerve to actually do it. In the long run it'll be better for you to just end this than to endure her slow fade.
Oof. You’re gonna have a bad time on Reddit today.
Cause you know damn well you tell a broad that they’re judging you and rightfully so as it is a bit grotesque
For the love of god.
Does nobody know what an imbalance of power is, anymore?
I could just puke.
Just to add to the comments about it being more likely the issue is with your wife, there are a number of skin conditions that can affect the vulva and cause dryness, itch and scarring. Eczema is common, and there's one condition called lichen sclerosis which makes the skin tight and scarred, and that can affect the vaginal introitus causing narrowing and dryness. It tends to start around middle age. It's important she sees her gynaecologist to get this looked into, as it's much more likely to be a health issue of hers and not yours.
Break up and find someone who is also nonmonogamous.
I don't have the financial ability to get a therapist and in the Philippines it is very hot to get a job without experience and there is a law with working in certain age here (i recently just turned 18)
He's selfish and clearly using you for his own enjoyment.
Use his line against him. Tease him to the edge and simply stop. You do that in a relationship. Just be prepared for him to be actually angry.
FYI: This guy is incredibly toxic and will not be a positive experience.
Suck the feminine penis bigot!
she gave me an ultimatum either I act normal during our family vacation trip or she’s breaking up with me.
My suggestion is to act like yourself and let her carry out her ultimatum. She is a walking red flag and a lot of work. The question for you is, Is this how you want to live! your life?
Right?
It’s just a game to feed his ego. He says he wants to erode her feelings for him, but I am confident that he wants to neg her so the chase will continue.
If he wanted things to be done, he would have blocked her already. If he was worried about AP’s feelings and mental health for real, he would also block her. His ongoing emotional engagement, even under the guise of ending things, just seeks to continue the entanglement for his benefit.
I’m sorry his wife hasn’t given up on him, because this is disingenuous trash.
It really sucks because you were so open from the beginning. The poly idea probably intrigued or even excited him. It can only be a fun fantasy for some people.
Do you think that maybe both of you could be happy if you were poly exclusively as a couple? Play/date/love as a couple.
You probably want to limit yourself to dating only poly people. No wannabes or experimenters. It’s ironic because most people assume being poly gives you more option. And on a casual level that may be true. But many of not most people (including myself) are incapable of maintaining a poly relationship. I hope this has a happy outcome for you.
Could end up being “FUBAR”.
Maybe you're right..
girl I'm sorry but it's going to be SOOOO much worse when you have a kid like you hope to eventually with this guy. “when times are rough, it's really rough” will be a million times worse when a real job & baby are thrown into the mix. he can't do the bare minimum when all he has to worry about is grad school? he doesn't even have a job. come on now.
believe me, he'll leave 90% of the household chores AND childcare to you & will “have to go do stuff at the office/garage/bar/whatever” and will continue to blow you off whenever you try to ask him to pull his weight.
I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I've seen this a million times. PLEASE save yourself from this mess now, before it's too late & marriage & kids are involved. you deserve SO much better. it's not just about him being a slob
You’re leaving something important out of this story. Why do you wanna be single right now?
I also feel like it’s so pathetic of me for wanting someone this bad when they act the way they do. I feel like I just hold on to hope that maybe one day he will see it is a mistake what he is doing and will come around and treat me the way i should be. But it also sucks seeing how he is acting now and I feel like I won’t be able to look past it.
There's a few things here, but most importantly, you need to take a step back and be honest about exactly how you feel and what you want. The reason I needed to stay this is because you said you're no longer in love with him and want to break up which would logically be taken as a statement of absolute fact. But you later say that you want to tell him that if he doesn't get his shit together by the end of the lease, you're ending things.
So which is it? I apologize if I'm coming off as mean here as I promise you that's genuinely not my intention. But have you absolutely decided you're done already, or are you willing to give it a shot and then make a decision based on what you ask of him?
Being upset about getting no help is absolutely reasonable. I know you have issues with verbal communication, but therein lies a big reason this problem exists. In saying that, he logically should be helping out without needing you to voice these concerns. The reality is he's not. We'd love to believe it's not out of malice, so the next step would be to voice said concerns. I'm assuming you've never done that.
Accordingly, you just sat around and festered with anger for half a year hoping he'd just change. Again, we'd all logically believe he should on his own. But at some point, you need to make decisions based on the facts you've been consistently shown. You should have brought it up. Maybe it would have been all for nothing. Or maybe things would have changed and you wouldn't be here. When you're making relationship decisions, you need to know all the relevant facts.
He doesn't pay enough attention to you during sex. Fair enough. Might also not be out of malice. Have you discussed it in general? We have to assume you didn't. So again, you just get angrier and angrier.
Let's quickly address your friends. They're fundamentally wrong in terms of their general argument. Absolutely never make relationship decisions based on potential; people can always potentially be exactly what you want them to be. Make them based on what you know. In your case, it's unique, because you know things aren't good, but you've also never discussed it.
So now you're writing a note. That's all well and good, but a big part of the reason you're here is because of that personal issue of yours. Even if you couldn't verbalize your concerns, you could have written out your concerns over the last six months. To then get back to your ultimatum, again, is that what you want?
Now, how should you break up with him? If you're absolutely done, just verbalize it right now. Makes no sense to delay the inevitable. If, however, it's contingent on your conditions, then do it if those conditions aren't met. I wouldn't let the lease end date influence it even if it adds complications. Good luck.
Yeah if you want a breakthrough between you two, you need to spend more time together, not adding other people. That will literally make things worse and more complicated in every way. Which in turn will make you both super stressed parents for your newborn. Therapy therapy therapy!
He's hiding things from you because he knows he's in the wrong. If it makes you uncomfortable and crosses your boundaries, then you have every right to feel the way you do.
He works out of town and stays at a hotel Mon-Thurs most work weeks
Is this something he needs to do, or is this just something he says he needs to do?
How do I convince him that what he is doing is wrong?
If he doesn't think he's doing anything wrong, then no amount of trying to convince him will change his mind.
You'll be ok OP.
Yeah long distance for two years
you acted mature. she did not.
she probably want a baby, consciously or not. while you are adamant you don't. it couls only went wrong at mid term.
This is the one. OP, read this and reflect on it.
But…you're the one with sleep problems. Focus on yourself maybe?
I tell my kid that mummy and daddy love her a lot, thank you for the concern. I would never poison my child's mind.
I work full time and earn 65k per year
There’s no chance he was just drawn to her? You seem to think very little of your friends desirability.
Without the full details I believe using “stole” is a big stretch. OP and her may have a trusting relationship with money when she spends it on herself. She may have thought that buying her friends drinks was covered under that agreement. That is why I suggest that OP sit with her and have a discussion, then decide whether breaking up with her is the best action to take.
Is he really a great boyfriend if he's not that great of a person? he's irresponsible, mean to animals, and what seems like very emotionally abusive.
You seem really unaware of how mistreated you are despite telling us multiple times that you are.
I told him that if he goes on holiday with her, then he's coming back home single.
So you have issued an ultimatum.
And he's still going.
Um, OP. He's going to see himself as single during the holiday, because it sounds like he's still going on that holiday, so he has chosen to go on the holiday over your relationship (that's pretty obvious here).
And he may just hook up with her during the holiday as someone who's freshly single.
Either way, I know it's hurtful, but you're right on some points, why is he friends with someone who treats you that way AND going on a holiday with her too. What kind of a partner is this? You've been together for 2 years and he still chose that so-called “friendship” with her over you? WOW.
But keep in mind, in your next relationship, refrain from issuing any ultimatum, OP unless you're going to stick with it.
Good luck.
Yep it’s just too uncomfortable to keep on. It’s meant to make the partner excited and then it gets taken off.
She sent the nudes first then told me she didn’t. Literally on the same night an hour later. Can you read my edit and see if it changes your opinion? Cheers
Well, if anything's possible, maybe he can get good at taking a dildo down his throat, and then give you any pointers he picks up while practicing…
What? He doesn't want to do that? But he doesn't care that you don't want to do that either? Hmm.